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Philosophy on the free will

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What do you belief in?

Free will
6
30%
Determinism
4
20%
Free will within determinism
9
45%
I'm not done with metaphysical doubt yet
1
5%
 
Total votes : 20

Postby Lycaon » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:49 pm

Since this is a philosophy forum as well, but I hardly see any of it, I made this topic to discuss a general issue in philosophy: Is there anything like a free will? If you can, please also add why you voted for whatever you have voted for.
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Postby MySanityDoesFly » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:56 pm

Great topic!

This is a huge philosophical. Most people seem to assume that we have free will.

I don't think we do.

We make our own choices, of course, but we were always going to make those choices.

You may be thinking that I'm mad - if so, I would suggest reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon

Almost no one seems to see it this way, but I feel certain that we have no free will, and everything that happens is pre-determined, although not by any kind of conscious entity. All events are determined by all previous events.

I voted for 'Determinism'.
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Postby lara » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:00 pm

i am rubbish at philosophy. i know i have no free will, because the limitations of life are just too present. at the same time i constantly try to break out and leave this "system" - there is still some amount of variety within this said "pre-determined" life, which i try to use. so i voted for number 3.

but REALLY: i don't have thoughts on these kind of things in real life :P - only in terms of practical realism :D
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Postby Lycaon » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:16 am

I voted for free will within determinism, although I mean free will in a kind of strange way.
There never has been found a way which the soul can use to get in contact with a body, for that's quite impossible since the first is nonphysical and the latter is. So for now it's best to say we don't have soul (and therefor no god in the christian way of thinking.
So because there is no soul, and so no carrier for the free will, I'd say I belief in determinsm at first. On a physical level everything has a cause and because the universm is coherent there's only one way events can take place.
We still have a free will in the same way we see for example the colour green. We all call it green, but we don't really know what it looks like. Despite the fact that every person might see colours entire differently, it's a very small chance that we see green the way it is. Since the light we use to see it is a bit coloured too, and you can never know if your eyes are accurate on this. And still we claim to see green.
On the free will, same thing. we probably know (or atleast I do) that we don't have one, we have the experience we do. (like we have the expierence we see green) I never heard anybody claim "I feel so much pressure from this determined system/the gods in making choices." And the fact there aren't people who say this, except for people who have lost their minds, makes quite sense.
Tahaaah, free will in determinism.
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Postby 100%...complete » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:06 am

I can see where those who argue determinism are coming from, but determinism, to me, implies some supreme or supernatural force that has planned things out. While the decisions we may come to are affected by past events, I cannot accept that they are entirely pre-determined in any way, or that what happens to us and the world is not avoidable.

I look upon the argument in this way: if you believe in free will and all is pre-determined, you will find yourself in precisely the same situation. If, however, you accept determinism, and we do indeed possess free will, you will always believe any ills and misfortunes were "meant to happen". This, to me, is an avoidance of responsibility. It's never "I fucked up", but always "I was meant to fail and it happened for a reason". I think, overall, that individuals will be left better off by accepting free will.

It is for that reason I choose to believe free will exists. Well, presuming I am indeed choosing :wink:
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Postby lara » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:33 am

oops, i was interpreting pre-determined differently. i don't believe in any kind of god or fate or such. i was thinking more of pre-determined as in limitations caused by education (or the lack thereof) and circumstances. for instance, i will never be a heart surgeon even if i wanted to.
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Postby MySanityDoesFly » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:10 pm

100%...complete wrote:I can see where those who argue determinism are coming from, but determinism, to me, implies some supreme or supernatural force that has planned things out. While the decisions we may come to are affected by past events, I cannot accept that they are entirely pre-determined in any way, or that what happens to us and the world is not avoidable.


I don't see it that way. I do not even remotely believe in a supreme force, and certainly not one who has sat down and planned everything out for everyone and everything. I think events are determined entirely by previous events.

100%...complete wrote:I look upon the argument in this way: if you believe in free will and all is pre-determined, you will find yourself in precisely the same situation. If, however, you accept determinism, and we do indeed possess free will, you will always believe any ills and misfortunes were "meant to happen". This, to me, is an avoidance of responsibility. It's never "I fucked up", but always "I was meant to fail and it happened for a reason". I think, overall, that individuals will be left better off by accepting free will.


I take your point, but personally, I accept full responsibility. I know it's me making all my decisions, it's just that I believe those decisions to have been inevitable. It's still me making my choices.
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Postby Lycaon » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:22 pm

Are there really this few people who have an opinion about this? :o
If so, I wonder why the word philosophy is actually mentioned in the sub forum's title. =B
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Postby Duvessa » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:36 pm

Lycaon wrote:Are there really this few people who have an opinion about this? :o
If so, I wonder why the word philosophy is actually mentioned in the sub forum's title. =B


I think all of us have some kind of opinion but are either too lazy to write it or can't find the words to describe it.
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Postby Ezzi » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:47 pm

Lycaon: I concider this an interesting topic indeed but I`ve just been too busy recently. I´ll get back to this.

Quick opinion is that free will is good at least for those who are aware of what they want and what not and for those who are able to think independently and make an act based on that.
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Postby J1 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:37 pm

Imho, free will and determinism are not opposites. It is perfectly possible for the universe to be deterministic and still for people to have free will. It's sort of a big topic to go into right here (and I suck at explaining this stuff anyway), but if you are seriously interested I can recommend a book by Daniel C. Dennet titled "Freedom Evolves", which deals precisely with this issue.

MySanityDoesFly, interesting that you should mention LaPlace's demon, because Dennett uses that extensively in his book. It's a great read (but not easy)!
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Postby nick » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:50 am

I am at least a little confused. It sounds like most of you are saying that the future is definent but how you get there is up to you. Am I correct?
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Postby MySanityDoesFly » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:25 pm

nick wrote:I am at least a little confused. It sounds like most of you are saying that the future is definent but how you get there is up to you. Am I correct?


Precisely ;)

Don't feel bad if you're not quite comprehending, as most people don't. Life is unbelievably complex!
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Postby nick » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:25 am

Lol calling me stupid? No I understand what you mean now :P I think I believe in free will. I can't believe that where I am is decided by anything but myself.
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Postby DarkLink » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:28 pm

This discussion would take hours and it's really not sure we could solve such difficult questions in a few posts. And what about scepticism and pessimism ?
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