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Philosophy on the free will

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What do you belief in?

Free will
6
30%
Determinism
4
20%
Free will within determinism
9
45%
I'm not done with metaphysical doubt yet
1
5%
 
Total votes : 20

Postby Lycaon » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:49 pm

Since this is a philosophy forum as well, but I hardly see any of it, I made this topic to discuss a general issue in philosophy: Is there anything like a free will? If you can, please also add why you voted for whatever you have voted for.
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Postby Lycaon » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:16 am

I voted for free will within determinism, although I mean free will in a kind of strange way.
There never has been found a way which the soul can use to get in contact with a body, for that's quite impossible since the first is nonphysical and the latter is. So for now it's best to say we don't have soul (and therefor no god in the christian way of thinking.
So because there is no soul, and so no carrier for the free will, I'd say I belief in determinsm at first. On a physical level everything has a cause and because the universm is coherent there's only one way events can take place.
We still have a free will in the same way we see for example the colour green. We all call it green, but we don't really know what it looks like. Despite the fact that every person might see colours entire differently, it's a very small chance that we see green the way it is. Since the light we use to see it is a bit coloured too, and you can never know if your eyes are accurate on this. And still we claim to see green.
On the free will, same thing. we probably know (or atleast I do) that we don't have one, we have the experience we do. (like we have the expierence we see green) I never heard anybody claim "I feel so much pressure from this determined system/the gods in making choices." And the fact there aren't people who say this, except for people who have lost their minds, makes quite sense.
Tahaaah, free will in determinism.
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Postby Lycaon » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:22 pm

Are there really this few people who have an opinion about this? :o
If so, I wonder why the word philosophy is actually mentioned in the sub forum's title. =B
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Postby J1 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:37 pm

Imho, free will and determinism are not opposites. It is perfectly possible for the universe to be deterministic and still for people to have free will. It's sort of a big topic to go into right here (and I suck at explaining this stuff anyway), but if you are seriously interested I can recommend a book by Daniel C. Dennet titled "Freedom Evolves", which deals precisely with this issue.

MySanityDoesFly, interesting that you should mention LaPlace's demon, because Dennett uses that extensively in his book. It's a great read (but not easy)!
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Postby DarkLink » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:28 pm

This discussion would take hours and it's really not sure we could solve such difficult questions in a few posts. And what about scepticism and pessimism ?
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Postby Lycaon » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:07 am

@ Nick: Basically determinism is just the thought that everything has a cause. So everything that happens is causal and therefore it cannot happen otherwise than it actually happens. If this still is a little vague and you want to fully understand what determinsm is, I'd sugest you take some interest in this link.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/

It's a long read though.

@ J1: Funny you mention Dennett, some of my thoughts about determinism are based on his body mind philosophy.
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Postby muskurov » Wed May 23, 2012 9:43 am

MySanityDoesFly wrote:I believe that we were always going to make those decisions, as determined by our previous actions, and those of the people around us.


yes, but that's not really determined, isn't it? it's just a result of our previous actions, and those of the people around us. If I understand you correctly you believe that put in the exact same position twice a human will react always in the same way. I believe that too, but It will be determined if there is a way to analyse everything that could affect your state of mind and know the decision in advance. It seems impossible at this point of human history.
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Postby muskurov » Thu May 24, 2012 9:53 am

MySanityDoesFly wrote:
I'm in agreement with this...Laplace's demon!


sounds rather utopian. Laplace was a fantastic mathematician, but in his time the atom was still the tiniest particle in the universe. You can't calculate the behaviour of atoms using only the laws of classical mechanics.
So let's just say he uses quantum mechanics, chaos, string theory and every other modern theory which suits him.
Knowing everything in the universe is a direct conflict with the uncertainty principle, which pisses me off but what can we do. If an intellect exists that disprove or further-develop the quantum mechanics so it could measure and predict the state and position that would be awesome! But everything points that we'll have to make a living with partial determinism and knowing almost everything.
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