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Philosophy on the free will

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What do you belief in?

Free will
6
30%
Determinism
4
20%
Free will within determinism
9
45%
I'm not done with metaphysical doubt yet
1
5%
 
Total votes : 20

Postby MySanityDoesFly » Tue May 22, 2012 4:25 am

Haha, yes I do. Super!
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Postby The She-Wolf » Tue May 22, 2012 11:26 pm

If evrything is determined, then perhaps I should just sit down and let things happen. If everything is determined, then why should I make an effort for anything? After all, things are already planned, aren't they?

I don't believe in determinism, not even genetic determinism.
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Postby MySanityDoesFly » Wed May 23, 2012 1:33 am

The She-Wolf wrote:If evrything is determined, then perhaps I should just sit down and let things happen. If everything is determined, then why should I make an effort for anything? After all, things are already planned, aren't they?

I don't believe in determinism, not even genetic determinism.


Well, we have discussed this before...but the important distinction to make here is the one between destiny actively being planned, as if by a deity, and destiny simply being predetermined merely by our actions. I favour the latter, therefore it is absolutely vital that we act, instead of sitting back and letting life happen! None of us will do very well living life that way.
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Postby The She-Wolf » Wed May 23, 2012 1:40 am

The way I see it, destiny is post-determined by our actions, not pre-determined. That destiny or whatever we call it, is determined by our actions, is something I agree on. But we are the ones who chose our actions and, consequently, must be held responsible for them.
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Postby MySanityDoesFly » Wed May 23, 2012 1:53 am

The She-Wolf wrote:That destiny or whatever we call it, is determined by our actions, is something I agree on. But we are the ones who chose our actions and, consequently, must be held responsible for them.


I totally agree with all of that...I do think we choose our actions and make our own decisions...the difference is, I believe that we were always going to make those decisions, as determined by our previous actions, and those of the people around us.
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Postby muskurov » Wed May 23, 2012 9:43 am

MySanityDoesFly wrote:I believe that we were always going to make those decisions, as determined by our previous actions, and those of the people around us.


yes, but that's not really determined, isn't it? it's just a result of our previous actions, and those of the people around us. If I understand you correctly you believe that put in the exact same position twice a human will react always in the same way. I believe that too, but It will be determined if there is a way to analyse everything that could affect your state of mind and know the decision in advance. It seems impossible at this point of human history.
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Postby MySanityDoesFly » Wed May 23, 2012 2:11 pm

Yeah, that's what I mean. And I call it determined...I don't think it's incorrect to say that, even if it is beyond our understanding at this point...like so many things are.
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Postby Mammon Iaho Dumah » Wed May 23, 2012 4:21 pm

What if our next decisons are determined by our previous one(s). Call it "Recursive Determinism".
It seems consistent with my world-view and experiences.
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Postby duriel » Wed May 23, 2012 8:25 pm

I think the whole universe is like a row of dominoes, it's completely "mathematical". If you know the amount of dominoes, their weight, their size and the way they're set out etc. then you can calculate what's going to happen when you topple the first one.

So, I voted for determinism.
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Postby The She-Wolf » Wed May 23, 2012 10:04 pm

Mammon Iaho Dumah wrote:What if our next decisons are determined by our previous one(s). Call it "Recursive Determinism".
It seems consistent with my world-view and experiences.


I think our decisions are influenced by our previous decisions/experiences and the result of them. Therefore, a person put in the same situation twice may not, and most likely won't, react in the same way.
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Postby The She-Wolf » Wed May 23, 2012 10:06 pm

duriel wrote:I think the whole universe is like a row of dominoes, it's completely "mathematical". If you know the amount of dominoes, their weight, their size and the way they're set out etc. then you can calculate what's going to happen when you topple the first one.

So, I voted for determinism.


We know so little about the Universe...

Physicists are still trying to find what they call dark matter, and it's so damn hard to detect it
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Postby MySanityDoesFly » Thu May 24, 2012 2:26 am

duriel wrote:I think the whole universe is like a row of dominoes, it's completely "mathematical". If you know the amount of dominoes, their weight, their size and the way they're set out etc. then you can calculate what's going to happen when you topple the first one.

So, I voted for determinism.


I'm in agreement with this...Laplace's demon!
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Postby muskurov » Thu May 24, 2012 9:53 am

MySanityDoesFly wrote:
I'm in agreement with this...Laplace's demon!


sounds rather utopian. Laplace was a fantastic mathematician, but in his time the atom was still the tiniest particle in the universe. You can't calculate the behaviour of atoms using only the laws of classical mechanics.
So let's just say he uses quantum mechanics, chaos, string theory and every other modern theory which suits him.
Knowing everything in the universe is a direct conflict with the uncertainty principle, which pisses me off but what can we do. If an intellect exists that disprove or further-develop the quantum mechanics so it could measure and predict the state and position that would be awesome! But everything points that we'll have to make a living with partial determinism and knowing almost everything.
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Postby The She-Wolf » Thu May 24, 2012 10:52 am

You're right, quantum mechanics and Einstein's theory of relativity really changed the way we see the world/ the universe. The main objective of modern Physics is to join quantum mechanics and Einstein's theory together and thus obtain a unifying theory.

The laws of classical mechanics don't apply to the atomic/ subatomic level. Yes, the uncertainty principle probably pisses everybody off :) I'm sure we'll eventually find a way to deal with it and be able to detect the actual position of a particle and not just a probability (although it is a high one).
In my view, we know almost nothing about the Universe but, if we manage to survive as a species, I'm sure that, given enough time, we'll be able to know a lot more.
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Postby Mammon Iaho Dumah » Thu May 24, 2012 10:58 pm

The She-Wolf wrote:You're right, quantum mechanics and Einstein's theory of relativity really changed the way we see the world/ the universe. The main objective of modern Physics is to join quantum mechanics and Einstein's theory together and thus obtain a unifying theory.

The laws of classical mechanics don't apply to the atomic/ subatomic level. Yes, the uncertainty principle probably pisses everybody off :) I'm sure we'll eventually find a way to deal with it and be able to detect the actual position of a particle and not just a probability (although it is a high one).
In my view, we know almost nothing about the Universe but, if we manage to survive as a species, I'm sure that, given enough time, we'll be able to know a lot more.


Speaking of which, I remember hearing, quite a while ago, that researcher at CERN(?) have succeeded in accelerating particles above the speed of light, which seemed quite legitimate.
I'm not a physicist, and therefore not qualified to comment on these particular matters, but generally speaking, I hate it when someone imposes a ceiling on how far the man's knowledge can reach. The only limit is our own perception, and the stupidity of the masses, of course. "For us there is no ignorabimus... We must know. We will know".
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